#02 Exploring the Self: Technology's Role in Our Reality with Vjera Orbanic
Technology, a lot of the times, it's closing the gap between you and society being one. Like, that's where we that's where we start vilifying and demonizing technology because that is very dangerous. Why is it very dangerous? Because we already assume that we are isolated from it. It's because we have already created this narrative, the me kind of narrative of what I can accomplish and what I can do, not us as a society can do.
Carlo Mahfouz:And yet technology is creating that door open. But for the most part, most people are abusing it. Hello, unconventional founders, and welcome to the founder's truth, a conversation with Carlo Mahfouz and guests. Today is the second episode, and I'm excited to continue the conversation with Vjera Orbanic, AI and human behavior specialist and partner at Ethical Intelligence. As we dive into the art of disappearing and understanding technology's role in amplifying our collective presence and recognizing the power of language in shaping your reality.
Vjera Orbanic:I think one important thing that you mentioned, which I would like to shed light on, is this concept of disappearing the self. That's also related to your presence, you know, you being present in the current moment. And I wanted to ask you to just share a bit more about that.
Carlo Mahfouz:Yes. I'm glad you picked up on it. It's a beautiful, I think, thing to not only witness another, but witness in yourself. And it's really hard because when I usually try to express it and like being so grounded and then now being so present that you actually no longer recognize yourself. Like you can no There's an interesting thing that happens usually, whether you're talking or listening, there is almost as if there is a you which is sitting somewhere and like you kind of or you feel like physically or spiritually or mentally that's always there.
Carlo Mahfouz:And you're almost afraid of letting them go. It comes out in thoughts, it comes up in like, you know, judgment on things that are happening, it comes out and you have a figure of that you which is sitting there and making sure, I'm gonna keep you safe kind of, like as if there is two people in you at the same time. It's a really interesting thing. And in some ways what I try always to say, if you're truly present, you actually almost disappear from your awareness. Like almost you're not aware of yourself while you are honest and uncertain.
Carlo Mahfouz:And to be fair, everyone has experienced this, even though they don't like it. You've experienced it in extreme situations, and that's where reality check kind of comes in through a lot of the times is, you know, something major happens or someone you really care about faces something, etcetera. You just realize in those moments, you're kind of not even there. Like, you're not aware of the time, you're not aware of your present, you're just kind of in it all at once as if you are all one. So you've experienced it before, it's not that you haven't.
Carlo Mahfouz:The problem is that it only happens in all those extreme situations, it's not the constant state, but it is the constant state. It's just that we're distracted from it. Again, by this And it comes out really out of insecurities, out of being afraid of being vulnerable, out of the fragility of what that truth and presence requires. It's such a fragile thing that we are almost so scared of just to let it be. And I think that's true presence.
Carlo Mahfouz:For those who got stuck in this being a little bit too philosophical, there is another dimension. You're sitting with a loved one. Do you feel the time passing? Do you feel even where you start and they end? You usually don't even notice that.
Carlo Mahfouz:You're doing your favorite sport, whatever, skiing, basketball or whatever, like, right? You're so into the game that you actually, you become either one with the mountain or one with your team, like you're dribbling and moving, and you're not calculating or seeing even doing these things anymore. You just happen. Like, it. Like, it's not more complicated than that.
Carlo Mahfouz:And if anything, I will tell you, this is the best meditation. This is you meditating too because most people are like, oh, meditating like the woosa kind of thingy. You know, I always say, but no, it's not. It's actually that is, you know, being present and now that's that is you disappearing where time no longer kind of feels present in you, where the space kind of where you, your thoughts, your emotions, your feeling just kind of become so here that even you're not even observing them. That's really there is no distance between you and them.
Vjera Orbanic:Yeah. Yeah. And how would you say, you know, because as you said, like most of us experience that in life and some people practice that more than others. How would you say that people could create a habit out of that? Interesting.
Vjera Orbanic:How could we bring ourselves to be more in that space rather than in this other, like ego driven where the I is very present.
Carlo Mahfouz:Yeah. This is where it becomes, I think, really interesting and scares most people. Like what I'm just going say now is that you actually don't do it. Because if you are doing it, you're still participating. So in some ways, the practice and the preparation in you is coming to the point where you actually are not the one doing it almost.
Carlo Mahfouz:Because if you are still the one who's you think you are the one, you know, getting into that state, if I wanna put it, or like this flow or kind of, if you you're still into the you haven't disappeared yet. Right? So you're still participating and then that is already deterring from it. And I think that's where a lot of the times these things fail in meditation or others. Right?
Carlo Mahfouz:Because you're still very present with them while, you know, spending time with your partner or whatever. You don't feel like you kind of you don't feel that that's the same. So yet, that said, it's an important distinction I make in the beginning is if you are doing it, then you not there. What you can do is though start to get more comfortable what that feeling is in in a way of preparation. And that's why I do believe you you start paying attention a little bit more when that happens anyway.
Carlo Mahfouz:And that's and that usually is after the fact because during it, if you're truly not in it, you don't you you're not analyzing. You're you're not you're not participating in in that. And I think that's an an interesting thing. And the way we you know, the way, at least and I describe it in the book is really kind of going through all of these different phases. You need to lose the sense of space, the more you are attached to the space and the space influences you, like your context always, and I'm not talking just physical space, I'm talking about like, what's around you, is always influencing you.
Carlo Mahfouz:The worst thing is to say that you're not influenced by it. I think that's one of the traps that you fall into in this you are doing it. No, It's more recognizing all of these influences and just sitting with that. Like allowing to recognize it and not trying to do more with it. Like it's really less of doing, it's like shedding and like kind of removing rather than adding for the most part.
Carlo Mahfouz:And the same with time, you know, you we measure almost everything in schedules and like, you know, what's happening next week and the assumptions and, you know, what happened in the past and my history and my credentials and all of that. But can you see as well, like, you are not you know, I say this because I mean, retrospectively again, like, I look at it and I see, I don't even know who I was ten years ago. I don't even know who I was last week. Like, that person is no longer me in the sense of we really underestimate how much we are, and yet we get stuck by, oh, I'm an engineer. Oh, I am an oh, I'm a coach, you know, so this I can or I cannot do.
Carlo Mahfouz:Oh, I am but truly, really, like, that's how little we think of ourselves. That's how little society has made you think of yourself as if your trajectory and credential defines who you are in every moment. And then until you don't have the opportunity. And that relationship, again, is like a little bit of sitting with it and recognizing it. And what is really fascinating is when you start exposing and then recognizing it and kind of almost letting it go, that's the process.
Carlo Mahfouz:That's really the, you know, it it feels like very as if you can touch it, but you can't really touch it. That's how it's gonna feel. And that's the same when we come to the more difficult one, which is the observer, I put it as the observer, which is you. Because there we're talking, you know, paying attention of how you articulate, what you say, what don't you say, like in a way, and why those choice of words or not words like kind of as well limit you as well when we start talking about, you know, your anchors and your thoughts, I think the thoughts are the most difficult. The relationship we have with our thoughts is so intimate that we are so afraid of losing it yet.
Carlo Mahfouz:We don't control thoughts. We like to think we do, but we don't. They just come and go. And that association, that relationship, the more that we feel we are defined by it, the less we can be present. That's the best way I can describe it is, the more we feel that relationship is necessary for us to be present, the less actually we are.
Carlo Mahfouz:And that applies across the board. Awesome.
Vjera Orbanic:Awesome. Well, I wanna now with these things that we discussed, and I think, you know, what you just shared about presence and, you know, being in the now and having your ego disappear, you know, it's really interesting in terms of, you know, the way we live digitally.
Carlo Mahfouz:Yeah.
Vjera Orbanic:Right? Which is quite ego driven in a way, right? Very much ego driven. And so I wanted to ask you, you know, especially because then the third book and the third step also to this process goes into from I to us to then society and the world. And that includes technology and it includes digital spaces.
Vjera Orbanic:I wanted for you to also share a bit with me how you see that kind of reckoning of, you know, like the founder and digital world specifically.
Carlo Mahfouz:I think that's a great segue, Vera. And thank you for the question. Think really it starts kind of bringing everything together. And if we build up on you and us and the collective, what was almost impossible before was how do you bring that on a society level? Right?
Carlo Mahfouz:Because you were probably, you know, restricted to your town and your village or where you live, like, right, you were restricted to who you talk to and etcetera. What we don't realize is with technology, that gap disappeared. No matter where you're sitting today, you can reach out to world. Imagine that. No matter where you are sitting, you can talk to anyone, social media, whether you like it for its pros or cons or whatever you want.
Carlo Mahfouz:Right? You can access knowledge, which is today kind of inside of AI to a certain extent. So it sounds positive and all of these things, but what people don't understand is technology to a lot of the times, it's closing the gap between you and society being one. And that's very dangerous. Like that's where we that's where we start vilifying and demonizing technology because that is very dangerous.
Carlo Mahfouz:Why is it very dangerous? Because we already assume that we are isolated from it. Like, it's very dangerous because we've already created this narrative that you said, you know, it's like the me kind of narrative of what I can accomplish and what I can do, not us as a society can do. And yet technology is creating that door open, but for the most part, most people are either abusing it because they're not understanding actually what it's creating. Right?
Carlo Mahfouz:And a lot of it and then I think that's where we're gonna like, you know, conversation is gonna start changing. And I hope it changes for, if anything, that's what I'm advocating for is, now between you, the distance between you and society is no longer far. I mean, let's talk tangibly, your personal brand, whatever that is, you know, however you think about who you are in the context, it's really who you are in the context of the bigger group and how people recognize you and all of that. That used to be very hard to do. Like imagine, I mean, ten, twenty years ago, I mean, if you were an author, you need to go to different events and like be present in different locations and you were locked in by the geography or your nationality or you're locked out.
Carlo Mahfouz:I mean, language is still a barrier to certain extent, but is it? I mean, AI is translating on the fly for God's sake, in any language almost fluently. So even those barriers are kind of dissolving very fast. So I think that aspect of the relationship of the founder and the society has not necessarily been talked about enough. We talked about, we'd almost always talk about the vilification of technology as if it's them versus us, especially once we talk about intelligence and like this AI wave that's coming now.
Carlo Mahfouz:But the reality that we completely dismiss is that technology is closing the gap. And by closing the gap, you are being more one of society and your impact and what you can do more than any other time in history. And that's a beautiful thing. That's not like, that's an opportunity for so many other entrepreneurs, like almost because, I don't know, and with it comes the diversification diversification of of the the solutions and the things that we can do, not only the homogenization and the consolidation and like but, I mean, it's a difficult dialogue. It's a difficult conversation, I I think, today, especially because we're seeing a trend which is going to between globalization and, like, more nationalism or whatever these dimensions.
Carlo Mahfouz:I think it's a very difficult conversation, but I think it's a really important conversation to be had. And I think that's where we start that's where we come full circle. It eventually kind of becomes you, like society is you, because you can now feed it and reach it, you can see the reports, you can touch and be exposed to everything. And I think that's where people get overwhelmed because the inner world that should have happened, there has not been an onboarding for you to get to the society level as well. We have just jumped, like one day you didn't have access to anyone, you were sitting in your village, you don't talk to anyone.
Carlo Mahfouz:And the next day, you know, you can basically send a a tweet and like the whole world will see it. Like, imagine there was never an onboarding to tell you like actually what is happening. It just told you, oh, now you are on Facebook or whatever. Like, now you can see the pictures of your friends and family. But no one told you about all the phases.
Carlo Mahfouz:And I think that's why it's very critical in this journey as well. We're starting with the self and then going to the teams and then going and then you're gonna start to see, holy cow, how cool is this that you and society now are almost one in what is possible.
Vjera Orbanic:I love that because I think that a lot of people, you know, there is a lot of people who experience isolation and experience technology as something that isolates them. And then this provides also a different point of view and a different angle into actually, you can be part of the collective you are the collective. So I think that's very beautiful, a very beautiful spin on that, a different entry point also with technology. Now, I have one more question that's coming to mind, which is, and I'm not promising it to be the last because it might open another one. But I wanted to go actually back to word, to language.
Vjera Orbanic:And the reason for that is because even if you look like at all different spiritual teachings and schools of thoughts and so on, everything always starts with word. And I wanted you to tell me a bit more about your starting point with language.
Carlo Mahfouz:As in Christianity, they say in the beginning there was the word, which is considered the word of God. I think it's beautiful question, Yaira. I think it's really interesting is so I speak multiple languages just by, you know, from where I am and English, French, and and and Arabic. And and because of that, I I like the play. I I think early on in my life, I've recognized the value.
Carlo Mahfouz:And even just yesterday, actually, and a good example, I haven't spoken French in, like, twenty years. And yesterday I met someone and I started speaking French. And by the time I finished, I was like, holy cow, I remember. Like, I didn't expect myself to remember all of these words that come through. And it's fascinating how it sits for you, but it opens a whole different world.
Carlo Mahfouz:But the point is, and I think just I'm studying a little bit so you understand, like at least my background in languages. I think what's interesting is in a way you learn language to speak, you don't learn language to communicate. And it's not the same thing. Like growing up, you learn the language to basically just allow you to name things around you and try to recognize the world around you and like just allow you to connect. But you don't learn language to actually connect, like to actually communicate.
Carlo Mahfouz:And I think there is a distinction there because you know, I struggle with that a lot. When I first came to The US, there was a lot of culture nuances and things like that. I spoke proper British English, just to be clear. I didn't have the slang words and everything else. That was very hard to connect.
Carlo Mahfouz:And yet I spoke English extremely well. I wrote it very well, but I actually couldn't communicate. And I think there is an interesting is because what I've learned in languages was not to communicate, I actually learned just to speak. And I think this is a great starting point for that, is as first recognize that any language today you master, I would say, or you know, you don't know it for the purpose of communication and connection, you know it for the purpose of more I need stuff and you need stuff and like I kinda it's like a very transactional nature.
Vjera Orbanic:And
Carlo Mahfouz:in some ways, the way I, you know, I kind of was able to exit that mode of using language just for communication, I mean, for speaking and communication, actually did not start with words. It started with accepting vulnerability and however it is almost, and I'll say why in a second. And that happened to me using the arts, it was singing and music, which kind of allowed me to be who I am without, like, being afraid of it. So opening my mouth to sing rather than opening it to speak. Like right?
Carlo Mahfouz:So I wasn't saying words. I was just, like, kind of belting out my voice, you know, granted I was not sounding that great, but who cares? But that level of vulnerability, once you start exposing it, exposing yourself to it, actually that was what allows you to move from speaking to communicating. And that's where the word then comes as a next step. And this is where I would say, for you to really master the word, you need to write it first.
Carlo Mahfouz:And I think that's where, you know, when I went on the journey of becoming an author and like I wrote my first book, I think that became very clear. And the reason is we think a lot of the times too much about our thoughts and we sit too much in our heads and expect that that to translate, that people will understand what that means. And the reality is it doesn't translate. So in the process of writing, you kind of clean it up, like you kind of start understanding the weaknesses of it and like how it shapes and like, because you're moving it from one medium, which is almost in your thoughts to another medium. And that transition of mediums, you start to learn.
Carlo Mahfouz:And then only after that, so you come back to actually starting to communicate. So in a way there is vulnerability starts first, like recognizing what that is, it's moving between forms. And actually, would say even further, write and then read it to yourself. You're gonna understand different things. So your thoughts will say one things, when you write it, you will say another thing.
Carlo Mahfouz:And then when you read what you wrote, you will listen to it and you will understand another thing. And imagine just that cycle with only you in the picture. Imagine that cycle when you're talking to someone else. Like how much is lost almost. So that's fascinating.
Carlo Mahfouz:And then I think at the end, you you move and you start, you become able to communicate. And that's where the word becomes much more than a word. And I think that's really interesting. And that's the risk. And that's why vulnerability is a key component because a word is never just a word.
Carlo Mahfouz:The word is a world of interpretation at the end of the day. And not recognizing that that's what it is, I think even though it's something which is meant to define and clarify, but the word is still something meant for interpretation. And the more we kind of have the vulnerability and the opens to go with that, the better we communicate and connect.
Vjera Orbanic:I got that. And I think, you know, there is an aspect of communication and what I heard also in what you were sharing, which is, you know, I think the most important aspect of communication is listening. Yeah. Not so much. And, you know, as you said, you learn languages so you can speak and so that you can tell others what you need.
Vjera Orbanic:Yeah. Basically, right? But actually there is like to truly communicate is to be able to listen. Right. And speak out of like, you know, being able to also recreate what another person is saying and then speaking out of that, like with that intention rather than anything else.
Vjera Orbanic:So I think that the intentionality is also really important when it comes to words. And, you know, you were saying something before, which was about the fact that our, like the language is important because we create our reality with it. And that's absolutely true. And I think this is also why all these different spiritual schools picked up on that. That's why we see that as a persistent kind of occurring in all different teachings.
Vjera Orbanic:Yeah. Now do not ask me the exact words, but I know that that's the case.
Carlo Mahfouz:Oh, yeah.
Vjera Orbanic:Wanted for us just to talk a bit about this creating reality also, like obviously your first book is called Reality Check. So reality as something that we create rather than something that is, right? Like we, this is my obviously point of view that we're creating, we're constantly creating reality. We're like actively creating our reality. Reality is not just something that is out there.
Vjera Orbanic:It's very much something that we contribute to in a way with our words. So I wanted for you to share a bit more about how you see it on your side when it comes to us creating reality with words.
Carlo Mahfouz:I think this is really, really interesting, and I'm gonna be extremely controversial here. I think it's both. I think reality is what is, and we are creating reality. But here's here's how I'm gonna explain it though. We are creating reality because it's our perception of what is, not necessarily because we are actually creating it almost.
Carlo Mahfouz:So I think this is really interesting because, and I think this is very hard to as well, like, logically to, you know, kind of piece it together. So I'm not gonna try to lay it out logically, but I'm I'm gonna say, in in some ways, our recognition of reality is almost delayed, okay, even though it is instanced. So in that regard, it feels as if we are creating it because we are shaping it through our perception. And you can easily see that as one person sees one thinks. And again, it's all from the lens of being of observing something because if you cannot observe it, then technically it doesn't exist or you're not able to visualize it or like kind of recognize it any other way.
Carlo Mahfouz:And a lot of the times, even one thing happening, multiple people observing it, they're gonna kind of project on themselves and perceive a reality, which is almost their own for the most part. Does that mean that what is or what happened or what it is is different or is it the same? And I think that's where I mean, we can play philosophically on a lot of these dimension. My the way I like to think about it is what is is, like, right? And we're creating it constantly because we are we're it's as if like you're shooting a video and that video keeps capturing the moment in the sense that it's capturing those colors and everything else on the film, it's creating it, but not that that sense it's actually, you know, influencing it.
Carlo Mahfouz:But at the same time, it is is it not influencing it because it's creating those colors? Because if you watch it in black and white, it's not the same as watching it in color. So is it not being influenced? It feels even when saying that, the feeling is like a loss of control while actually And I think that's the scary controversial part of it. It feels like such a loss of control in that statement, but there is a beauty in it to it as well.
Carlo Mahfouz:And the sense of kind of I don't know. Like, I can always always speak to both because I I feel I understand the fear and I understand how scary it is that we're not creating it. But at the same time, like how liberating is that we're not creating it rather than perceiving it and then that perception we're creating it. Like the level of opportunity that that creates for me is really interesting. And again, it's a perspective on it.
Vjera Orbanic:Absolutely.
Carlo Mahfouz:But I like to think about it in that kind of paradoxical nature when those two things hold true simultaneously. And why not? Because isn't the most important thing in some ways to see the breadth of possibility rather than to be confined to what actually it is. Like, that's the interesting thing about this is, yeah, I can get stuck on one and I'm not creating reality or I'm not shaping it. But in some ways where I feel like the biggest aliveness or excitement or where I feel like the biggest kind of breadth of opportunity or possibility that I cannot even imagine.
Carlo Mahfouz:I think I realize it another way. And that brings me to the point which is even further controversial is in the space of the paradox, the truth lies. In that in between, the opportunity lies. Anyway, and that's true as well for you and how you think you operate as a founder with you, with your teams and everything else. It's in the space in between.
Carlo Mahfouz:It's in that gap which hold these paradoxes true at the same time, the opportunity lies. And I don't think that shift happens easily. I think that's a very hard shift to happen. But when it happens, you almost cannot unsee it. It's really interesting.
Carlo Mahfouz:And I know I didn't answer your question exactly in that sense, but at least that's how I kind of see the world.
Vjera Orbanic:I think that's great because like, for example, I'm listening to you and I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. It's not exactly how I see it. I see it a bit differently. And what I want to say is, you know, like I do think that there is like an objective things that is happening, like, right? Something is happening or as you said, like what is, is.
Vjera Orbanic:I also think that at the same time, our occurring of that, our perception of that, it's so constant, you know, for a human being that it's almost and I'm not gonna say for everyone, again, I'm generalizing, but I think for most people, you're occurring is the truth rather than the kind of objective happenings. But at the same time, here I'm just providing my perspective. So like, is like, I think a lot of times when we think of like, oh, like we have an occurring, we almost perceive this as like we're reading a situation and interpreting a situation. But I actually think that we're writing it. Like, I think it's more like it's less passive of us, like perceiving it and then like observing it and us almost like reading something.
Vjera Orbanic:Feel like it's more active, like a writing, like we're almost writing the situation through our own lens. So I see it a bit more like active in that way.
Carlo Mahfouz:No, no, no. Think that's really cool actually. I'm glad we're digging into it because I think this is really interesting the sense that it's really how time plays tricks on us in both dimensions. One is passive, one is active. Right?
Carlo Mahfouz:But in some ways, if you think about it, it's really interesting, is if everything is happening now, there is no active and there is no passive.
Vjera Orbanic:Right.
Carlo Mahfouz:Right? That's the interesting part. Like, because you can look at it from the passive sense and say like, right, you know, whatever is happening is happening. And then from the active sense, almost like I am writing what it is. But what is, which is like almost in its holiness right just now cannot be neither active nor passive.
Carlo Mahfouz:It's just like, you know, and I think that's the beauty of it, is we are writing it and we are actually not at the same time. And it's gonna blow some people's mind, but it's really interesting. Like right now in this instance as a whole, and if this instance I wanna like blow it up, if it's like just a, you know, a singularity and I wanna blow it up into like a, you know, a universe of its own, Like there is no active and passive because there is just is, like whatever you end up you're doing or happening, you're writing, whatever, like in both of its forms. But I think this is where as well the language becomes a bottleneck in this conversation because the language is designed to actually either be in a passive sense or an active sense. So we cannot even speak about it, it's very difficult even to speak about it.
Carlo Mahfouz:This is a great example of how if you're communicating some things, it's the words and the language we use dictates so much of how you can express it. Yeah. Because you are expressing in an active tone, I'm expressing it in a passive tone where neither the passive nor the active is probably I mean, I'm I'm saying it's not true. Right? And the truth cannot be expressed in the words because the words automatically I mean, it's a subject, you know, object verb, like, almost like there is someone who's doing something or no one is doing something.
Carlo Mahfouz:Like but if it's neither nor, we don't have a language for that.
Vjera Orbanic:Yeah. Which
Carlo Mahfouz:It is very, very sounds like really strange, but there is no language to define things without this relationship, which is already inherently built in into the language.
Vjera Orbanic:Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. It's a great point.
Vjera Orbanic:And it's like, you know, because on one hand we can say we're creating reality with words. On another hand, we could say we don't have the words to create reality. Right? Exactly. Those are both true at the same time.
Carlo Mahfouz:Exactly. And I think these things get me a lot excited because I think it's it's a really cool thing to understand. Once you once you kind of almost a little bit accept that, which I think for some, it it it it's not gonna happen after you listen to this. I can get into you. That's okay.
Carlo Mahfouz:Don't worry about it. Like, imagine once you do, how much things look different. Like, right? Like how many things, good or bad, start be have a completely different meaning. Yeah.
Carlo Mahfouz:And I think that's that's something worthy. It's like something really, really cool in a way.
Vjera Orbanic:Yeah. Awesome.
Carlo Mahfouz:Thank you so much for listening to this episode. One thing I want to highlight, when we talk about ambiguity, it always feels like such a distant concept. But if you look a little bit more deeply, it's usually always the foundation for clarity. Because if everyone comes in clear, then there is no more clarity to be gained, if anything. And one of the things that I highly recommend from listening today is start writing even if you can't try it alone, in the sense you don't know where to start.
Carlo Mahfouz:Just put a few notes and let AI help you. It really doesn't matter, who's doing the writing as much as some of your thoughts are being distilled in something that you can read visually and probably just read them aloud as well, you would process them very differently. So give it a try, and we'll see you in the next episode.
